Aminet 15/Aminet 15 - Nov 1996.iso/Aminet/comm/fido/fnewsa.lzh/fido1033.nws

Text File | 1993-08-15 | 61KB | 1,302 lines

F I D O  N E W S --                   Vol.10  No.33    (16-Aug-1993)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
|  A newsletter of the       |                                         |
|  FidoNet BBS community     |         Published by:                   |
|          _                 |                                         |
|         /  \               |      "FidoNews" BBS                     |
|        /|oo \              |       [phone]     1:1/23        |
|       (_|  /_)             |                                         |
|        _`@/_ \    _        |       Editors:                          |
|       |     | \   \\       |         Sylvia Maxwell    1:221/194     |
|       | (*) |  \   ))      |         Donald Tees       1:221/192     |
|       |__U__| /  \//       |         Tim Pozar         1:125/555     |
|        _//|| _\   /        |                                         |
|       (_/(_|(____/         |                                         |
|             (jm)           |      Newspapers should have no friends. |
|                            |                     -- JOSEPH PULITZER  |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
|               Submission address: editors 1:1/23                     |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Internet addresses:                                                 |
|                                                                      |
|    Sylvia -- [e-mail]                       |
|    Donald -- [e-mail]                    |
|    Tim    -- [e-mail]                                      |
|    Both Don & Sylvia    (submission address)                         |
|              [e-mail]                    |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       For  information,   copyrights,   article   submissions,       |
|       obtaining copies and other boring but important details,       |
|       please refer to the end of this file.                          |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
                          Table of Contents
========================================================================

1.  Editorial.....................................................  2
2.  Articles......................................................  2
      Wholly Bible Echo...........................................  2
      Collecting "FREQ" lists.....................................  4
      ARJ vs ZIP -- are we missing the point?.....................  4
      ARJ vs ZIP, The Faceoff,  PART II...........................  5
      Compression Doubletake......................................  7
      TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH..................................  8
      Public-Safety Bulletin Board Systems: Filling a need........ 10
      An Update from Joe Sysop.................................... 11
      A Response to David Stark................................... 13
      Subject: WAKE UP FIDO....................................... 15
      STATUS REPORT ON THE VENDINFO PROJECT....................... 15
      Subject: Moderators(?)...................................... 17
      Subject: Lap Times (tm)..................................... 18
      Subject: Standards.......................................... 19
      FREE ONLINE ACCESS TO STATE LEGISLATIVE INFORMATION......... 20
3.  Fidonews Information.......................................... 22
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  2                    16 Aug 1993


========================================================================
                              Editorial
========================================================================
    First of all, a brief apology. A article appeared last week
accredited to Mr. Clay Tinsley. It seems the the article was
written by someone else in response to Mr. Tinsley's article of
the previous week. His name was quoted in the article, and as a
result, ended up in the author spot. He did not, in fact, write
the article. He wrote the part that was quoted. We do not know
who wrote the article. (Got all that? it is perfectly clear
you see ... )

    Speaking  of  standards,  there  is  a document called
ARTSPEC.DOC. It outlines the format for Fidonews articles.
No-one ever follows it, but it does help to prevent the above
sort of thing. When a piece comes in for the snooze that is not
formated to specification, we can and do simply reformat it.
However, on ocassion it will contain great sets of tables laid
out in columns too wide. That presents us with a bit of a
dilemma. Reformating a paragraph of written material does not
really  change  the  meaning; reformating a table ussually does.
Please note that column 72 is the limit for articles.  Please do
not submit tables wider than 72 columns.

    Anyway, on to the news.

========================================================================
                               Articles
========================================================================
Wholly Bible Echo
By Mark Wilson  1:379/1107

Wholly_Bible Echo

About the first week of July, a new Bible based echo made it onto the
Zone 1 backbone. Now some of you may be wondering to yourselves, why
is there a need for another Bible discussion echo, and to tell you the
truth, before March of this year, I also would have asked that
question. At any rate the reason that this echo was started, was due
to a netmail that arrived at my hub and at my NC simultaneously
requesting that I be cut from any links to a particular Bible
discussion echo. Now what was particularly troubling to me was that I
was not even linked to the echo, and had never been, so I appealed to
my echomail hub and to my NC. After several weeks of no response from
the originator of the netmail, my NC ruled that there was no reason
for me to be banned, lacking any evidence of rules violation. Upon
that ruling I linked into the echo, to find people constantly being
threatened with access cuts and in almost every case, their main
"violation" was that they dared to disagree with the doctrinal
position of the moderator. After several weeks of watching, I began to
contact former participants of this echo with the idea of starting a
new Bible discussion echo, and upon finding two others, we jointly
started the echo that is called Wholly_Bible.

FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  3                    16 Aug 1993

Wholly_Bible was and is intended as a place for those who have been
run off of other Bible discussion echos a place to discuss, without
the verbal abuse that seems to be present on some. We are committed to
respecting the beliefs of others, even when they differ greatly with
ours, although we do restrict the material from which discussion is
based. We know and realize that viewpoints on the Bible vary greatly,
and often are contradictory, one to the other, and also realize that
these beliefs are often very deeply rooted. Therefore it is the
decision of the moderators, that when we see sparks and flames
beginning, that we will rule that the participants in the verbal war
should agree to disagree, and then to drop the subject. We are at this
time also allowing general conversations to also take place, although
they must be generally related to the overall topic of the echo.

Tagname:      WHOLLY_BIBLE                Area Key: WHLLYBBL
Title:        Biblical discussions and related topics
Description:  An echo for the discussion of Bible topics and themes,
              with a focus on Scriptural basis for ideas. This echo
              is for Christian discussion and not for debating whether
              Christianity is valid or not. Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew
              scholars welcomed, as we consider correct
              interpretation to be important for correct doctrinal
              beliefs. This echo is dedicated to supplying a place to
              discuss Biblically, without the name-calling and
              one-sided approach that is prevalent in other echos. We
              understand that different points of view and doctrines
              are out there, and feel that if necessary, then all
              concerned need to "agree to disagree" and then to drop
              the discussion for the time being.

Moderators:   Mark Wilson, 1:379/[e-mail]
              Scott McCool, 1:291/[e-mail]
              Dave Wright, 1:395/[e-mail]

In case of trouble obtaining a feed, contact myself at 1:379/1108, or
Scott McCool at 1:291/7, and we will set up a feed for you, although
anyone hooked into the backbone should be able to obtain it from their
normal sources.
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  4                    16 Aug 1993


Collecting "FREQ" lists

By: Glen Piwowarczyk @ 1:154/17@FIDONET
Collecting "FREQ" lists

I saw in the editorial of the last FidoNews, and saw talk  about
collecting "FREQ" lists.  I sent out a message a few days ago on
the FN_SYSOP echo about this.  I'm willing to make one BIG  .ZIP
of  all  the "FREQ" lists I can get my paws on.  So, please send
all your files lists to 1:154/17, and they'll  be  added  to  my
.ZIP.   Right  now  it is so small that I haven't "published" it
yet, but when it gets big enough, I'll put  out  the  word.   If
there  are those SysOps who get newer and better files every few
days, I will update the .ZIP when I get your list,  but  please,
PLEASE  don't  send a new one EVERY day, just every week, or so.
I hope to add another check mark to the things me board is known
for,  so  please  just  send  your list along!  Oh, a few little
things, please make the filename something original,  like  your
BBS  name,  so there aren't duplicate filenames, and also send a
little letter saying "Here's my file list, thanks for  spreading
the news about my BBS, because after all your giving up precious
hard drive space, blah, blah..." or something equally pointless.
<G>  Now,  lets get those file lists in here! Glen Piwowarczyk -
TalkNut BBS - 414-334-8033 - 1:154/[e-mail] P.S. You might
have notice my board being down from the week of the 6th through
the 13th, just upgrading the system.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ARJ vs ZIP -- are we missing the point?

By Scott Fell 1:304/7 or [e-mail]

The compression controversy

        Results can be misleading in a small test such as the one
submitted a few weeks ago. I find it difficult to believe that people
would change an archiver because of a 1 second difference in speed or
a 1% difference in size.  Now I know the results weren't THAT close,
but I don't really think the important thing here is the archiver and
the results, but rather the philosophy behind it.

        This is also known as getting by with the best software the
cheapest way possible :-)

        Why do I use ARJ?  It's a great program that I don't have to
pay for!  I realize this may sound a bit blunt, but I personally am
not interested in paying zillions of dollars in registration fees for
a HOBBY which I think should be kept to the smallest cost possible,
particularly as a sysop, and especially given my own resources as a
"starving student" in college.

        Even if that free program is in some way inferior to the 'pay
for play' software, if it accomplishes the same feat in a reasonable
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  5                    16 Aug 1993

fashion, I'll always opt to go for the software that's free.

        I'm very happy that ARJ is so popular, I'm very supportive of
the format.  But if ZIP was 'free' (for non-commercial use-- free to
me), and ARJ was not, then I would use ZIP.  If they were both free, I
would have to compare the two on features instead of cost.  At this
point, ARJ would win the competition at that game as well.  ARJ has a
lot more features in general.  I personally have no idea why Mr. Jung
allows us to use his archiver free-of-charge, especially given that
it's one of the top two archivers in use, and number one in available
features, but nonetheless, I'm grateful he does.

        Cost is also the reason I use Maximus, Binkley, and a variety
of other very good programs which are also free for all use, or free
for non-commercial use.

        If you do a little searching around, you're bound to find lots
of free programs that will save you money.  There's just no reason to
spend money on something you don't have to.  Call me cheap, but it
frees up the pocketbook for more important things... Like that next
hardware upgrade ;-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

ARJ vs ZIP, The Faceoff,  PART II

By Scott Miller, The Star Board BBS (1:123/416)
Ok,  Ok,  I screwed up the first one,  now for a better test.

   I read several articles and messages written to me,  and found that
many people believed that I was two narrow in my test.  For this one I
have rerun the test with a mailpackets provided by FIDO,  containing
many messages (around 633).  I also read a similar test,  but it was
slightly unfair,  because it used ARJ 2.3,  which is not quite as tight
as 2.41. Again,  all caches and other disk utilities have been
disabled.

 ----------------------TEST RESULTS, PART 2---------------------------

TIMING RESULTS (Courtesy of 4DOS's TIMER command):
 -------------------------------------------------

ARJ v2.41,  Robert K. Jung:

Timer 1 on: 15:29:54
Timer 1 off: 15:30:20 elapsed: 0:00:25.93

PKZIP v2.04g  Phil Katz,  and PKWARE INC:

Timer 1 on: 15:28:00
Timer 1 off: 15:28:28 elapsed: 0:00:27.19

COMPRESSION RESULTS (The respective VIEW switches):
 ---------------------------------------------------
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  6                    16 Aug 1993

 ---------
ARJ v2.41:
 ---------

Processing archive: FIDOMAIL.ARJ
Archive created: 1993-08-06 15:29:54, modified: 1993-08-06 15:29:54
Sequence/Pathname/Comment
Rev Host OS    Original Compressed Ratio DateTime modified CRC-32
 ------------ ---------- ---------- ----- ----------------- --------
001) 6D85C8B3.PKT
 6  MS-DOS       154151      46962 0.318 93-08-06 06:28:46 48552D76
002) 6D85C8C6.PKT
 6  MS-DOS       153611      49023 0.319 93-08-06 06:33:36 031A1C51
003) 6D85C8EF.PKT
 6  MS-DOS       104752      32875 0.314 93-08-06 06:45:24 04BB2D02
004) 6D88E7A8.PKT
 6  MS-DOS       154768      46467 0.300 93-08-06 09:24:32 B5A3608C
005) 6D88E7B8.PKT
 6  MS-DOS       155376      49765 0.320 93-08-06 09:27:44 B74D3EE4
006) 6D88E7D1.PKT
 6  MS-DOS        88293      26484 0.300 93-08-06 09:33:26 4B489DE4
007) 6D8AA028.PKT
 6  MS-DOS          631        452 0.716 93-08-06 10:38:30 E863B93D
008) 6D8B58BF.PKT
 6  MS-DOS         2859       1494 0.523 93-08-06 11:22:02 78B5F965
009) 6D8D15B8.PKT
 6  MS-DOS          409        309 0.756 93-08-06 13:06:02 7235FEAB
 ------------ ---------- ---------- -----
    9 files      814850     253831 0.314

 -------------
PKZIP, v2.04g:
 -------------

Searching ZIP: FIDOMAIL.ZIP

 Length  Method   Size  Ratio   Date    Time Name
 ------  ------   ----- -----   ----    ---- ----
 154151  DeflatX  49860  69%  08-06-93  06:286D85C8B3.PKT
 153611  DeflatX  51220  69%  08-06-93  06:336D85C8C6.PKT
 104752  DeflatX  32320  70%  08-06-93  06:456D85C8EF.PKT
 154768  DeflatX  45849  71%  08-06-93  09:246D88E7A8.PKT
 155376  DeflatX  48870  69%  08-06-93  09:276D88E7B8.PKT
  88293  DeflatX  26010  71%  08-06-93  09:336D88E7D1.PKT
    631  DeflatX    453  29%  08-06-93  10:386D8AA028.PKT
   2859  DeflatX   1497  48%  08-06-93  11:226D8B58BF.PKT
    409  DeflatX    313  24%  08-06-93  13:066D8D15B8.PKT
 ------          ------  ---                 -------
 814850          255392  70%

----------------------------------------------------------
This time,  to be less biased,  I will keep my mouth shut
about the results, you can read,  find out yourself.

                                  Scott Miller
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  7                    16 Aug 1993


Compression Doubletake

Barry Smith 1:130/807
Second Thoughts on Compression Routines

  In response to Thoughts on Compression Routines by (Mike Riddle
1:285/27 Fido-News Vol. 10 Num. 30), I have found a small but
fundamental problem with this process.  It is based upon the
conclusion that 0's are meaningless.

[Quoted from original]

For example, suppose the data string to be compressed consisted
of the following:

                         11010101^1

     In the above string, there are 5 ones and 3 zeroes.  The
zeroes are dropped as conveying no information.  The compressed
information that there are 5 ones can be presented thus:

               in binary, 101 (in decimal 5)

     The condensed information takes account of every information-
conveying one in the original information string but occupies less
room.

[End quotation]

  This is a false assumption.  The zero's in question are
placeholders.  To get technical, they change the power of the ones to
the left of them by (in binary) a power of two. Example: 1001 = 9 in
binary, 1100 = 12 in binary, 1010 = 10 in binary, &c.

  With the compression method mentioned (Due to it's size I will not
quote it.), these zeros are removed and all of these numbers become
the same: 11.  In any encryption method, these must be distinguishable
or the final product will be unable to be decompressed.

  To look at this from an easier angle, consider decompressing two
files.  One file contains 1010 1010 1010 1010 1010 1010 1010. The
other contains 1001 0010 0100 1001 0010 0100 1001 0010 0100 1001.
After the first compression, they both become 11 1111 1111 1111 (14
ones).  Then the 14 (1110) becomes 3 (101), then 2 (10), and finally
1.  Does the fact that both files reduced to 1 and had the same number
of passes through the encryption process mean that they are the same?
No!  They are different files of different lengths and containing no
numbers in common.  If you were given the number of passes and the
number 1, which file would be decompressed, the first or the last?

  This method of compression, although outwardly appearing to be
great, has no hope of working, at least not to any compression rate
that would be any better than those offered by other compression
programs, assuming it was able to decompress at all.  To work, it
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  8                    16 Aug 1993

would require knowing where those non-informative zeros go.
TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH
by Jack Decker

I was just reading Fidonews Vol.10  No.32 and came across this little
all-too-familiar blurb:

 > PRIME and HOLY_BIBLE, The Wholly Bible Echo
 > Steve Winter
 > FidoNet 1:18/98

 > Those who want false christianity or a visit with infidels certainly
 > have several networks and echos available, but if any are interested
 > in "non-compromised" Apostolic Christianity, I encourage you to check
 > out PRIME.  As far as the reprobate oneness nets go, I believe the
 > Lord allready rated them just a tad below a dunghill.

[remainder of article deleted]

I had rather hoped that with new editors of Fidonews, this recurring
advertisement would not be allowed, or at least the writer would be
required to tone down his language a bit.  It strikes me as odd that
you can make comments like this about members of certain faiths and
no one says a word.  I wonder what the response would have been had
the same sort of language been used to describe those of a particular
race, national origin, gender, etc.?  I suspect that in some
countries it might have caused this issue of Fidonews to go into the
bit bucket, since redistribution might well have violated some "hate
crimes" legislation that exists in other jurisdictions.

There are a couple things you should remember about any religious
cult (I am NOT calling Mr. Winter's group a cult, but I will leave it
to the reader to decide if there are similarities!).  One is that
virtually all of them insist that theirs is the ONLY group that God
approves of.  Even if their entire group consists of twenty people
and was founded only three months ago, they believe that everyone
else (including most everyone who has died before they arrived on the
scene) is going straight to Hell.  I personally do believe that there
is a Hell to be feared, but I seriously doubt that the way out is SO
narrow that only members of one small sect are going to find it.  And
besides, as any Christian familiar with the parable of the wheat and
the tares realizes, it is very dangerous for mere mortals to sit in
judgement of how God feels about others.

The other thing is that cults usually have a strong leader who does
not take kindly to opposing viewpoints (I am rather understating
this, but if you recall the recent events in Waco, Texas you
hopefully get my drift.  That was an extreme case, but still...).

Now, when Steve Winter was sending longer articles to Fidonews
explaining his beliefs last year, I wrote an article entitled
"Bashing the Beliefs of Others in FidoNews", which I had hoped was a
reasoned rebuttal of some of Mr. Winter's articles.  Following
publication of that article, most of the netmail I received was
favorable.  The sole exception was what in my opinion was an
FidoNews 10-33                 Page:  9                    16 Aug 1993

extremely venomous netmail message from Steve Winter himself.  I will
quote only the first paragraph, since it sort of summarizes his
response:

     "I believe that you are the false christian who posted the
     lies in the recent FidoNews.  I can certainly understand
     why false christian filth are offended by the truth that
     exposes them as deceiving scum.  Your cult is a putrid
     stench in the nostrils of God."

Now, that would have been bad enough, but in spite of the
inflammatory language used (which I'd hardly consider "Christian"), I
tried to send him a reasoned response by netmail, one that I'd spent
quite a bit of time writing.  But when I tried to send the message,
it came back to me, bounced by "MBounce V1.00".  The first line of
the bounce message said, "The following message was refused at the
above address" and it came from Mr. Winter's address (which was also
in the MSGID line of the bounce message).  So apparently Mr. Winter
felt that he could blast everyone else's beliefs (in both Fidonews
and Netmail), but insulate himself from any replies using a robot
bouncer.  Draw your own conclusions.

To top everything off, Mr. Winter filed a Policy Complaint against
me, and seemed to very much want to have me kicked out of Fidonet (I
think because I complained about his robot bouncer, but who knows the
real reason).  In any case, the complaint was dismissed, which made
him even more upset.  I won't go into all the details, but the whole
incident, in my opinion, painted Mr. Winter in a very unChristian
light.

The bottom line, again in my opinion, is that Mr. Winter is sowing
the seeds of hatred against those who do not believe _precisely_ as
he does.  While I'm sure that he can pick Bible verses out of context
to justify his behaviour (while ignoring entire chapters such as
Romans 14), I would hope that the editors of Fidonews would not be
inclined to let him preach essentially the same message on a
semi-regular basis (by running the same "ad" over and over).

Since I no longer have a presence in Fidonet, maybe my opinion on
this doesn't count.  But given the netmail I received last year, I
know there are many others who feel the same way.

By the way, just in closing (and on a totally different topic), I
want to agree with the comment from Stanton McCandlish (and similar
comments that have been expressed by others) about the size of the
nodelist.  One of the reasons I finally disconnected from Fidonet was
due to the size of the Nodelist.  This is another of those technical
problems that folks have tried to solve using political means, and it
hasn't worked (well, the Germans did manage to achieve a significant
reduction in their part of the nodelist, but at what cost?!).  The
funny part is that those who defend retaining ARC as the compression
method always say they are doing it for those using the "oddball"
(usually older) machine that can't use any other form of unarchiver,
yet many of those older machines have limited storage capacity, and
may well choke on the sheer size of the nodelist long before the
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 10                    16 Aug 1993

compression method becomes a problem, at the rate things are going.

I said "way back when" that authors of software intended to be used
in Fidonet ought to design their software with the idea that someday,
not every valid node in Fidonet would be listed in the nodelist.
Nobody listened.  So now people are starting to look and say "You
mean I'm using four or five megs of precious disk space just for
nodelists!?!" and still we don't seem any closer to a solution.
Strange...  but, alas, true.

Jack Decker  -  Internet address:  [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Public-Safety Bulletin Board Systems: Filling a need

By Tom Batchelor, EMT-P
SysOp, Healthline BBS
1:137/222

How Public Safety oriented BBS's are filling an important need...

I am the SysOp of Healthine BBS in Bradenton, Florida, Bradenton's
only Fire, EMS (emergency medical services) Public Safety BBS.
I wanted to take time and fill everyone in on what Public Safety
BBS's are all about, why I am running one and the future of this
kind of system.

You've probably run into one or two Public Safety BBS's in your time
telecommunicating. There actually is quite a few (exact numbers --
even ballpark numbers -- I have no idea about). From the variety of
origin lines in FireNet and other Public Safety echo's, it appears
to be a large number.

I originally started Healthline with the provider in mind; in other
words, the Firefighter, EMS worker, EMT, Paramedic and Cop on the
street. After a year of doing it, however, the number of actual users
on my system who are in the above categories is few. The vast majority
of my users are average citizens who have little or no knowlege of
public safety.

After I noticed that fact, I was not dissapointed at all. In fact, I
was jubilant, especially after I started getting a lot of positive
comments from the average user about how "nice" my BBS theme was. It
would appear that my users were interested in the public safety
concept, information about it and information about their Fire, EMS
and Public Safety system.

This is not a suprise to me, however. Frankly, I don't think that many
citizens even know what kind of Fire Department services their
community; or, what kind of Emergency Medical Service is available in
their area; or, if their providers are paid or volunteer. Usually,
it's just not something you think about on a daily (or yearly) basis
until you need them.

FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 11                    16 Aug 1993

This is one of the reasons Healthline is around. Being a
firefighter/paramedic, I really want to spread the word about public
safety, it's good points and bad points, and how the average citizen
can get involved to help their providers do a better job.

The future of systems that provide this kind of access to information
about public safety is good, I think. More and more boards sporting
this theme are popping up to fill the need. After all, you know how
hard it is to get information out of beurocrats, right? ;)

I would like to encourage any inquiries on public safety systems, how
to start one, where to link up with, whatever. Just netmail me at
1:137/222 or call my BBS at 813-751-4573.

See you on the tube!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

An Update from Joe Sysop
by Joe Sysop@1:something/something

While the support has been appreciated, I regret having given
cause to others to post 'pseudonymous' messages. My own use is
a matter of protection since matters are not yet resolved.

To detractors such as David Starks, I would point out that I had
admitted in the original article that I am under investigation
and proceedings for a criminal charge...specifically, a set of
components which I believed to be salvage are now being claimed
as stolen.

However, to make it clear, I was *not* under investigation for
software piracy, pornography distribution, credit card hacking,
or access to restricted databases.  As with any person who
assembles their own system, I have numerous parts laying around,
such as motherboards, controllers and I/O cards, mostly from
older XTs.

However, my BBS and all the hard drives in the house were
confiscated; packages of software were confiscated; a fax/modem
was confiscated; a large amount of paperwork was confiscated.

None of it, however, was a specific target as inventoried in the
search warrant...instead, this was all taken under the 'general
provisions' even though none of it matched the items that the
search warrant was specifically issued for.

Further, the downloading of the BBS contents is not addressed in
any of the reports, nor is there any mention of the police
officer  having  even  been  the  one  performing  the
download...especially since I have now discovered that my BBS,
taken in the raid by the officers as 'evidence' for my upcoming
case, was prominently displayed in a meeting room where training
in 'cracking' hard drives of suspects was conducted...by a
completely separate police agency, and outside of a police
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 12                    16 Aug 1993

facility.

What is going on here? Do I not have any rights? I paid for my
system and the costs of having the hard drive rebuilt and
resurfaced---do I lose all my rights by being arrested? Does my
system now become a 'training tool' without regard?

Mind you, the officer conducting the 'training' was the same one
who performed the download of my system, and received a
commendation from federal agencies for his seminar!

Presenting this to my attorney, I was told that it is likely
that both my system and hard drives, which were *not* listed in
the warrant nor even alleged to be stolen, will not be returned
to me; that my own equipment is going to be taken without
compensation, simply because these were found 'at the scene of a
crime'.

Keep in mind...I am not trying to start a panic here.  I *am*,
however, letting people who run BBSs that there are police
agencies out there who have no idea of what is going on with
respect to privacy nor even the delicacy of equipment. The
attitude I've been presented with is "So what?" when I've raised
concerns about the treatment of the equipment and the contents
of the drives; the officers are determined to find _something_
illegal  on the drives, by any means possible.  Further,
so-called police 'experts' may be the worst thing that can
happen to a system; the 'phantom' officer who backed up my hard
drive couldn't figure out how to access the Stacked drive itself.

Can someone tell me what the effect of the DES blackbox or other
decryption devices or programs have on Stacker or DoubleSpace?
Can anyone tell me the effects of these on programs, encrypted
or not? The attitude I'm receiving is that if things are
damaged, it is my own fault for having them on the hard drive
anyway!

The bottom line: It appears that the current thought in police
investigation is to confiscate computer data and equipment, even
if it is your own and can be proven, in order to investigate
that you are doing something illegal.  Because there is no
specificity or law guiding this type of search, computer data
and storage systems can be confiscated under NON-SPECIFIC terms
in  a  search warrant...basically under the 'any and all
documents' provision which is contained in most search warrants,
and usually used to take evidence that you live at the site of a
search.

Further, there seems to be NO guidelines on how data and storage
are to be treated; in my own case, the back-up made by the
officer is most likely in the evidence locker, while my own
system has become something to carry around and show off,
possibly even to demonstrate police decryption procedures on.

I am amazed by all this.  I am dumbfounded.  Granted, it's
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 13                    16 Aug 1993

budget time, and the officer has to justify his job as 'Computer
Crimes Officer', but to take these kinds of liberties, to do
this sort of damage, is more than reprehensible; it is nearly
criminal in itself! As well, the fact that the officer in
question  is  not mentioned *once* as being part of the
investigation makes it even more amazing that he would have
access to my equipment!

Be aware.  That is my warning to anyone who might be suspected
of a crime or involvement in one, whether or not the crime was
actually committed by you.  Take the warning as you will, a
Chicken Little warning or a real and true threat to your
system's security; it does happen, because it _is_ happening.

(Note to Tom Jennings: I understand that you have been informed
of my situation and status. I appreciate your help, and thank
you for it. I will route the updates to you as they happen.)

# NO 30 #

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A Response to David Stark
Shawn McMahon
1:206/1701.666

Mr. Stark, you raised some questions in your article "An Open
Letter to Joe Sysop" that I believe need to be answered.
However, Joe can't give you those answers at present.  Let me
see what I can do for you.

You ask why the location and identities are being concealed.
Two reasons:

1) Joe has been advised by counsel not to talk about it.

2) Joe is taking crap from the local authorities about his
computer use; making said authorities look bad over Fidonet is
part of what got him into this in the first place, so I don't
think he wants to give them an excuse to come take away his
stone-age-technology temporary system.

He's located in Zone 1; that's all I can tell you, but then he
said that himself in his letter.

You then went on to say:

    'If the story is true as related, I should be seeing it on
    "20/20" or "60 Minutes" or "Inside Edition" as a classic case of
    illegal search and seizure.'

You're right; you should. However, you probably won't.  They
don't know any more about computers than the involved officers,
so they probably think terminal programs qualify as "hacking
programs" too.
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 14                    16 Aug 1993


One of the officers, the phantom police officer, in fact, boasts
of his training in the 'newest' virus program---a virus that
activates during a modem transfer, allegedly demonstrated at the
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia. Such a
virus is impossible to exist in either a hardware or software
environment.

Further, you said:

    'Maybe "Joe Sysop" is really guilty of some crime and is taking
    out his anger at having been caught by writing inflammatory
    articles for Fidonews.'

Maybe he is; nevertheless, much of the equipment seized has
nothing to do with the crime of which he is accused, the warrant
was vague enough to allow seizing nearly anything with a silicon
chip in it, and some of the authorities involved do have
personal grudges against Mr. Sysop.

As it is, instead of being held in an evidence locker for the
upcoming hearings, the computers and hard drives were used in a
demonstration by those same authorities on how to decipher
encrypted files and recover  deleted  files  from  seized
equipment...using the 'latest decryption technology' like the
DES 'black box'.  Mind you, these are the same pieces of
equipment alleged to have been the stolen property; if they are
stolen, why are they being used for a training seminar for
local, state and federal employees, when the court case is still
_pending_?

I'm not gleaning all of this from his letter; I know the guy,
and have for some time.

You also said:

  'You cite the Steve Jackson Games case. Is your attorney
  familiar with the ruling? What is your real problem?'

He is now, but wasn't when that article was written.  I helped
track down the information on it.

It's VERY similar, although Mr. Sysop doesn't have the primary
defense used in that case available to him; he's not a publisher.

Which is why you should be a heck of a lot more concerned with
the outcome, because you probably have terminal programs on your
BBS, too.

Note: In the time intervening between when I originally wrote
this and when I submitted it, the specific properties have been
identified; those reported as having been stolen are now
separate from the personal property. However, with the use of
the equipment at the demonstration by the police, counsel has
indicated it does not seem likely that there is any intention of
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 15                    16 Aug 1993

the police to return the equipment to Joe Sysop. A petition for
the return of the equipment has been made, but no ruling has
been issued at this time. It was the stated intent of one of
the officers that Joe would never see his equipment again, since
it is now police property.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: WAKE UP FIDO
 From: Ralf Schneider (2:247/30)

Germany in 1993. Everybody knows about the Situation here in
Germany,  and no one does anybody aginst it.We have two
Fido-Net's here The  Original  FIDO  (TM)  and  now  our
FIDO-CLASSIC.Fact is that most of the People are in FIDO-CLASSIC
or some Sysops are listed in both net's. Everybody say's that
the Situation is OK, maybe we got this or this Netmail not maybe
this or another Node can't reech us....Private Systems !!??

IS NOBODY ON THE WORLD INTERESTED ABOUT THIS SITUATION ?????????

Now the same procedure at R25 ?? !!

Read your Echomail and ignore this Crying for HELP.

Ralf Schneider

----------------------------------------------------------------------

STATUS REPORT ON THE VENDINFO PROJECT
(as of "alpha-test" release, 7/31/93)

 Brief Project Description

   VENDINFO is a system for conveying software product information
   and distribution permissions from the author to distributors.
   A standard (public) file format will carry extensive information
   in a compressed, efficient form.  The associated toolset will aid
   the author in constructing the record, and will allow the
   distributor to extract portions of the record, or make
   distribution decisions based on its content, in a highly auto-
   mated way. VENDINFO will allow automation of many operations now
   performed manually by BBS Sysops, disk vendors, etc.

 VENDINFO File-Format Standard ("Alpha-Test Version") Released

   An "alpha-test" version of the VENDINFO file-format standard is
   now available for study and comment.  This is a lengthy (55 pages)
   and detailed description of the proposed file format, and is
   probably a good read only for those with a serious interest in
   the internals of VENDINFO, or a serious interest in helping to
   insure that VENDINFO handles the needs of the entire industry.
   For those with such an interest, it is available now, and
   comments are most welcome.

FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 16                    16 Aug 1993

   The standard can be obtained from the SHAREWARE forum on
   CompuServe (lib 0, VNDINF.ZIP); by download or FidoNet/RIME file
   request (as VENDINFO.ZIP) from the Rams' Island Software BBS
   (see below); or from various other sources.  If absolutely
   necessary, hardcopies are available for mailing within the
   United States upon receipt of $3.00 U.S. and a mailing label.
   A complete set of VENDINFO information, including some material
   not available electronically, can be obtained for $5.00 U.S.
   and a mailing label.

   We are working now to prepare the VendEdit editor, the VendPrcs
   processor, and the software developer's library.  When these are
   ready for beta testing, that test period will also constitute a
   beta test of the file format itself.  Until then, the file format
   is regarded as changeable.  Beta testing of all these components
   should begin by early September, and perhaps sooner.

   Those who have seen the prototypes of these tools agree (see just
   below) that they insulate the user from the complexity of the
   VENDINFO file format very well, and make the system easy to use.

 VENDINFO Prototype Tools Demonstrated at Summer Shareware Seminar

   A prototype VENDINFO toolset was demonstrated for two days at the
   Summer Shareware Seminar held in Indianapolis June 18-20.  Nearly
   200 attendees, representing authors, disk vendors, rack vendors,
   CD-ROM publishers, and BBS sysops, saw demonstrations of these
   tools.  Virtually all were extremely positive.

   In fact, we've now had somewhere around 250 responses, either to
   the concept paper or to the demonstration.  There have been literally
   zero negative responses.  Three people have been skeptical about
   VENDINFO's acceptance by the industry, but all three were concerned
   about the complexity of the file format, and none had seen the editor.
   All those who saw the tools at SSS seemed to agree that it will be
   extremely easy to produce and to use the VENDINFO record, regardless
   of the (necessary) structural complexity of the record itself.  Except
   for these three, all reactions have been positive.

   As you can see below, acceptance by the BBS software manufacturers
   has also been extremely good.

 Products Now "Committed in Principle" to Support VENDINFO

   The following software manufacturers are "committed in principle"
   to "support" the VENDINFO standard.  That is, subject to our
   development of a satisfactory standard and software developer's
   library, these manufacturers agree to extract relevant product
   description information directly from the VENDINFO record, much
   like today's use of FILE_ID.DIZ.  They have not been asked to
   make any direct use of the distribution policy information in the
   VENDINFO record.  That is the function of a separate tool,
   optionally available to the Sysop.

   BBSes
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 17                    16 Aug 1993

      PCBoard, Clark Development Co.
      Wildcat!, Mustang Software, Inc.
      Major BBS, Galacticomm
      Searchlight BBS, Searchlight Software
      TBBS, eSoft
      Auntie BBS, Wes Meier
      OmegaComm BBS, Larry Loiselle
      PowerBBS for Windows, Russell Frey
      ProBoard BBS, Philippe Leybaert
      Sapphire BBS, Pinnacle Software
      Tinyhost, Bruce Krobusek
      UltraBBS, UltraBBS Software
      Windowed Modem Environment, Jason Fesler

   File Upload Processors
      Catscan, Mike Ortiz
      CheckZip, Bill Hull
      DIZIT, Robert Neal/CorpSoft
      HoboScan, Floyd Hobson
      TransScan, Craig Dunstan

   Other Products
      Colorado Utilities Disk Manager, Micro Systems Solutions

 ================================================================
 Rams' Island Software
 7644 E. Lakecliff Way                _______
 Parker, CO 80134-5904 (USA)     ____|__     |                (R)
                              --|       |    |-------------------
 Voice: [phone]          |   ____|__  |  Association of
 BBS:   [phone]          |  |       |_|  Shareware
 CompuServe: 76244,324          |__|   o   |    Professionals
                              -----|   |   |---------------------
 FidoNet:  1:104/333               |___|___|    MEMBER
 RIME:     RAMSISLE
 Internet: [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Moderators(?)
   From: Richard Sharp (1:157/574)

I see so much these days about moderators excercising excessive
powers over the unsuspecting users. Powers of dictation that
scare me since they act more like policemen than simply
moderators of echos. Some seem rather arrogant, ignorant, and at
best obnoxious to a great degree. Many are abusing their power
to moderate over others, and I'll cite just one example. My
system besides being in FidoNet is also a hub serving a couple
other systems. Recently, a user on one of my feeds entered a
message in an echo that the moderator didn't appreciate. Instead
of issueing a warning to the user, he sent crash net mail to the
BBS in question demanding that the user be barred from the
conference. The sysop in turn sent crash net mail to the
moderator and apologized for his users actions; explained in
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 18                    16 Aug 1993

great detail that the user was brand new to BBs'ing and that he
had been properly warned and reprimanded for his message. He
then asked that the user be given a second chance. Rather than
reply to the sysop, the moderator sent ME a crash net message
demanding that I cut the feed for his echo to this system, which
I did promptly. Then we have that other matter concerning a Mr.
Bruce Bodger vs a node in his neck of the woods for violation of
shareware licensing.  Both of these situations are  clear
examples of abusing their power to moderate. In the past I've
been warned too about being "off topic" but others have come to
my rescue with messages to the moderator like "how do you figure
he's off topic?", only to have THAT message ignored. I see in
FidoNews that some are asking for some sort of guidelines for
moderators to follow. Rather than those guidelines  being
optional, I would like to see them MANDATORY! A moderator should
moderate, not set or change the rules on a daily basis depending
on what side of the bed he/she got up from that day. MOST
moderators are cordial, understanding, and do an excellent job,
but there are those who act like they can do no wrong and make
unfair decisions and issue unwarranted warnings.

We carry FidoNet on our BB's for the enjoyment of ourselves and
our users. We should not have to worry every time a message is
entered by ourselves or our users that we will be issued a
warning, banned from the echo alltogether, or worse yet, banned
from FidoNet for excessively annoying behavior.

Time for rules/regulations over moderators? Yep.. past due in
fact!


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Lap Times (tm)
   From: Andrew Forslind (1:132/168)

 *** LAP TIMES (tm) - The Premiere Interactive Electronic Magazine ***

Lap Times (tm) is an interactive magazine in which BBS callers
participate in the columns using FidoNet ECHOmail technology.
Devoted to motorsports, Lap Times receives press releases from
many major sanctioning bodies, tracks etc. Therefore it provides
up-to-date news, as well as a place for fans and racing
professionals to discuss their interests at a casual level.

Lap Times has a simple charter which, above all, stresses
respect for the costs of participating SysOps, and family
oriented discussion.

By using Fido-style ECHOs for it's "columns", Lap Times requires
no special software. If you currently make Fido-style echomail
available to your callers, you can set-up Lap Times by simply
adding our columns to your configuration.

Lap Times originates at 1:132/168, a V32b, V42b system located
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 19                    16 Aug 1993

in Nashua, New Hampshire USA. There are other sources which may
be more convenient and less costly, ask about them when you send
your application. FReq LAPTIMES.ZIP from that same system for
information and membership application.

Andrew Forslind (Nashua, NH), formerly the Media Relations
Coordinator for an international motorsports organization, and
Christy Calderella, (Grandview, MO) one of stock car racing's
most enthusiastic fans, co-coordinate the Lap Times organization.

INCLUDES: C_FANINFO Fan related information.

   C_GENCHAT General discussions not racing related.

   C_GENRACE General Racing discussions.

   C_OPENWHEE Open Wheel racing related discussion.

   C_SPORTCAR Sports car and club racing related discussion.

   C_STOCKCAR Stock Car racing related discussion.

See ya' on the next lap!

Many thanks,
Andrew Forslind
Coordinator
Lap Times (tm) Interactive Electronic Magazine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Standards
 From: Jason Robertson (1:250/802.2)

In life everything must change to suit it's environment. In the
case of the Fidonet, they think they can running efficiently
with outdated, ideas, and standards.

The standard have to change in order for the efficiency to
increase, such as the white butterfly in a area of high
concentration of factories, the white butterflies will soon
become extinct as they are easily found in the midst of the
black smoke, but if they adapt and change their colouring to
suit the environment they will avoid extinction.

What make's the Fidonet any different?

The Fidonet is a living organism in itself, as it already
cover's what is required for a living organism it does grow, and
it has already reproduced, creating various network for diverse
topic areas.

Archivers in present use as the standard, are limited in a
miminal way.  It is the time to upgrade to a system that is
modern and doesn't cost as much to transfer files between
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 20                    16 Aug 1993

systems, this requires a change in archiver's as the base, at
this point knowledge of one archiver that is presently available
for many different systems is .ZIP archivers. This increased
compression will inevitably change the outlook of the system, by
increasing throughput of information from and two other systems.

Then after the upgrade of archivers, there could be a upgrade of
the usage of Bi-Directional File Transfer Protocols, and none of
this Proposal of usage of this, as it has already proved to be
useful. It requires less time to transfer in both direction at
the same time, then individual transfers.

Then talking about changes, the whole network should run like a
business, if someone has a complaint there should be a higher
power who's sole responsiblity is to make sure that equality
among the users is upheld to the highest standard, such as a
Electronic  Judge.  So that things like what is recently
happening in Net250 doesn't happen to often.

This change could also be increase, by giving not absolute,
definite rules for moderators to follow, but simple guides, to
help them set-up, run, and moderate, with efficiency, without
the distruction towards people.

If even one of these changes were to follow through especially
the software, based it would save money toward the end user, and
especially the carriers.

Jason T. Robertson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

FREE ONLINE ACCESS TO STATE LEGISLATIVE INFORMATION

From: Jim Warren <[e-mail]>
Date:   Wed, 11 Aug 1993 05:07:07 -0700

TOPIC: FREE ONLINE ACCESS TO COMPLETE STATE LEGISLATIVE INFORMATION

California's public legislative information, plus the state  statutes
and  volumous state Constitution will become available via the public
networks, WITHOUT CHARGE by the Legislature, IF  they  pass  Assembly
Bill 1624 before they recess, Sept. 10th.
  AB1624  would mandate free public access via the Internet.  And Tim
Pozar   who   runs   KUMR.LNS.COM   and   who   created   the   first
Internet-to-Fidonet  gateway  and  UFGATE  has  already  committed to
feeding the data through to Fido-folks.

NO COST TO THE STATE/TAX-PAYERS
It will cost the state essentially nothing to do all this. They  will
use  their current computers, files already computerized for internal
use, and their current T-1 (1.544Mbit) Internet connection  -  which,
in  turn,  is  gatewayed  to almost all public and consumer networks,
including a 100-or-so gateways to Fidonet, such as Pozar's.

FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 21                    16 Aug 1993

If AB1624 passes, it will MAKE CALIFORNIA THE FIRST  STATE  providing
TIMELY,  FREE,  statewide, online access to comprehensive legislative
data via the public computer nets.

For  the  first  time,  citizens  throughout  the  state  will   have
economical  opportunity  to  timely-participate  in  the  process  of
their/our own governance - rather than being limited only to  outrage
after-the-fact.  Further,  it will provide an example for citizens in
other states to use in encouraging their  states  to  similarly  open
their governmental processes.

BUT ...

THE  ONLY  THING  THAT HAS KEPT THIS BILL MOVING HAS BEEN A STREAM OF
SUPPORT LETTERS AND PUBLIC PRESSURE FROM A BROAD RANGE OF INDIVIDUALS
AND   GROUPS!   (It's   only  known  opponents  are  several  of  the
Legislature's top unelected bureaucrats - *powerful* insiders wanting
to *sell* access for big bucks.)

LETTERS AND FAXES SUPPORTING AB1624 ARE NEEDED, ASAP
It's now in an "end game."
  Aug. 18th, the Senate Rules Committee will consider and vote on
  AB1624.
  Sep. 10th, the Legislature quits working in Sacramento for the year.
  Oct. 10th, the Governor must veto legislatively-approved bills he
  opposes.

The  Senate  Rules Committee is run by Sen. Dave Roberti (D- L.A./Van
Nuys).  If he likes AB1624, it will pass Rules.  If not, he  can  and
will kill it.
  If  Roberti  passes  it,  it will almost-certainly pass the Senate.
Then we need for the Assembly to "concur in amendments" and need  for
the Governor to let it become law.

LETTERS ARE *ESPECIALLY* NEEDED FROM *SOUTHERN  CALIFORNIA*  Most  of
the  support  for  AB1624  has  been coming from Northern California.
But, most of the key Senate legislators are from Southern California.
They NEED to hear from their constituents.

AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, please send a one-page letter supporting AB1624
to the Senate Rules Committee - who have seen essentially *no* support
for it:
Letters/faxes should be addressed to
   "State Capitol, Sacremanto CA 95814."
    Sen. David Roberti, Chair, Room 400; fax/916-323-7224;
    voice/916-445-8390...
and to the other four members (tiny, *powerful* committee!):
    Sen. Ruben Ayala (D-Chino area), Room 5108; f/916-445-0128;
    v/916-445-6868.
    Sen. Robert Beverly (R-Long Beach), Room 5082; f/not avail.;
    v/916-445-6447.
    Sen. William Craven (R-Oceanside), Room 3070; f/not avail.;
    v/916-445-3731.
    Sen. Nick Petris (D-Alameda), Room 5080; fax/916-327-1997;
    v/916-445-6577.
FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 22                    16 Aug 1993

Important:
Please also send COPIES of ALL letters to the AB1624 author:
Hon. Debra Bowen, Room 3126; voice/916-445-8528; fax/916-327-2201.

Please  include your title and work-organization, "for identification
purposes, only" (to  impress  the  legislators  with  the  bredth  of
interest in AB1624).

CAN EMAIL VIA ME, IF YA CAN'T FIND TIME FOR FAX- OR SNAIL-MAIL
  If  you  don't  have  time  to  send snail-mail, you can email your
message to [e-mail] on the Internet, and  I  will  print
and/or  fax  the  entire message to Bowen and to the legislator(s) to
whom you address it.  (Please allow for that delay.)
  Write it exactly as you would snail-mail, but  please  BE  SURE  TO
INCLUDE  your name, address and phone #s for legislators' independent
verification.

FOR MORE DETAILS AND PROGRESS REPORTS
  If  you  would  like  details  and  updates  (via  email  from  the
Internet),  let  me know.  I will forward the last half-dozen updates
about the bill, and will keep you timely-informed of next  steps  and
needed action.

SEE YOU AT BBSCON (Aug. 25-29, Colorado Springs, Colo.)?
  I  will  be  giving the keynote address at BBSCON, and will also be
chairing a session that will cover this topic, among others,  "Online
Access to Govt." Would be delighted to chat with you about this.

We have a voice.  We will either use it - or loose it.
--jim
Jim   Warren,  columnist  for  MicroTimes,  Government  Technology  &
BoardWatch [e-mail]
-or-  [e-mail]
345   Swett   Rd.,    Woodside    CA    94062;    voice/415-851-7075;
fax/415-851-2814  [organizer  & Chair, First Conference on Computers,
Freedom & Privacy (1991);
InfoWorld founder (1978); Autodesk Board of  Directors  member;  etc.
blah blah] < just a citizen/volunteer/advocate re AB1624; no business
interest therein >

       Please pass this along to others who might be interested.

I hope  you  will  notify  your  users.   It  *is*,  after  all,  OUR
government.  :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

========================================================================
                          Fidonews Information
========================================================================

FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 23                    16 Aug 1993


------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------

Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Tim Pozar
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello,
                             Tom Jennings

IMPORTANT NOTE: The FidoNet address of the FidoNews BBS has been
changed!!! Please make a note of this.

"FidoNews" BBS
    FidoNet  1:1/23
    BBS  [phone],  300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS)
 Internet addresses:
    Don & Sylvia    (submission address)
              [e-mail]

    Sylvia -- [e-mail]
    Donald -- [e-mail]
    Tim    -- [e-mail]

(Postal Service mailing address) (have extreme patience)
    FidoNews
    172 Duke St. E.
    Kitchener, Ontario
    Canada
    N2H 1A7

Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international
amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual
articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The
contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the
rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those
of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews.

Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
copyright 1993 Sylvia Maxwell. All rights reserved.  Duplication and/or
distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in
other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews
(we're easy).


OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each
PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere,
mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.)

INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.ieee.org, in
directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding
FidoNet, please direct them to [e-mail], not the
FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously
volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.)

FidoNews 10-33                 Page: 24                    16 Aug 1993

SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable
from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it.

"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission.

    Asked what he thought of Western civilization,
    M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea".
-- END
----------------------------------------------------------------------